Personal & Religion & Science Posted by Oaktown Girl, 21 Mar 2007 04:59 am
Science and belief.
By Dr. Free Ride
[Update to the Update: 4/11/07 - On the off chance that anyone comes back by here. Dr. Free Ride’s response to the comments can be found here.
Update 3/25/07 - Good news! Dr. Free Ride will be making a follow-up post to address “a bunch of the points raised here”. Look for it sometime during the week of April 9th. Would be sooner, but a dealine on a paper has to be met by next week. Thanks for your patience. - Oaktown Girl, MOJ.]
There’s a rumor afoot that serious scientists must abandon what, in the common parlance, is referred to as “faith”, that “rational” habits of mind and “magical thinking” cannot coexist in the same skull without leading to a violent collision.
We are not talking about worries that one cannot sensibly reconcile one’s activities in a science which relies on isotopic dating of fossils with one’s belief, based on a literal reading of one’s sacred texts, that the world and everything on it is orders of magnitude younger than isotopic dating would lead us to conclude. We are talking about the view that any intellectually honest scientist who is not an atheist is living a lie.
I have no interest in convincing anyone to abandon his or her atheism. However, I would like to make the case that there is not a forced choice between being an intellectually honest scientist and being a person of faith.
Scientific discourse.
Fans of science claim that science makes knowledge. Often, they claim more — that science provides the best way to build knowledge, or even the only way to build knowledge. What, precisely, counts as knowledge is one of those pesky philosophical issues that some philosophers spend their whole careers trying to work out. One flash card definition people seem to like is that knowledge is justified true belief, but it’s not an unproblematic definition (see “Gettier problems“).
Even if it were an unproblematic definition philosophically, when scientists are being careful, they don’t claim that they’re making anything this strong.
Let’s back up for a moment and look at the rules of the scientific discourse. Science is engaged in a project of trying to build reliable accounts of phenomena in the world — depending on the scientists, these will be phenomena in the physical world, the biological world, or the social world. Regardless of the sort of phenomena with which particular scientists grapple, there is a shared commitment that these phenomena are publicly accessible — that they are features of a world we share with others.
One reason this is important is that in building their accounts of the world, scientists are aiming for a kind of objectivity. They are trying for something that goes beyond a subjective report — how the world seems to them. Instead, scientific claims reach for what anyone with well-functioning sense organs could observe — hoping, of course, that the observable features of the world we can agree on are features of the world as it really is, existing outside our heads.
The impulse to demonstrate that your account of the world is not merely a subjective account is central to scientific discourse. It explains the importance of empirical evidence — evidence that anyone could observe given the right circumstances (circumstances which scientists take pains to specify precisely so other scientists can replicate their experiments) — in grounding scientific claims. It also explains why scientists try to be explicit in setting out their chains of inference from the empirical evidence. If your goal is to build good accounts of the world outside your head, it is useful to have others working toward the same goal checking your work to ensure that you haven’t leapt to any unwarranted conclusions. Since seeing the world as we want or expect to see it is a constant danger, scientists need each other to work out what the empirical facts are, and how much can be justifiably inferred from those facts.
Since there are always more empirical data to be had — and since the danger of drawing conclusions that outstrip the empirical data in evidence is always near — scientific conclusions are always tentative. If “knowledge” is a success term that asserts the truth of a claim, scientific knowledge is knowledge with an asterisk, for scientists recognize that their claims are tentative — inferences judged to be well-grounded in the empirical evidence available right now. In light of new evidence, claims might be updated. As well, scientists might decide a particular inferential chain is not as reasonable as they first thought it to be.
In other words, while scientists may be hunting truth, they understand something about how hard it is to be sure they’ve found it.
The skeptical attitude is something scientists feel they ought to put on, like a lab coat and safety glasses, when they are on the clock as scientists. In their capacity as scientists, they don’t think they should accept claims until those claims have something like proof behind them. Because the evidence is still coming in, the proof will hardly ever be once-and-for-all proof. Maybe to compensate for this, scientists try to impose a high burden of proof that a claim must meet before it is deemed scientifically credible.
A good scientific claim has to convince a whole passel of skeptical scientists. The case for that claim has to be grounded in publicly accessible evidence from the world, and the way that evidence counts as support for the claim must be made transparent. An undeniable part of the appeal of science is its democratic potential: if your sense organs work and you’re able to set out logical inferences, you can help build and test claims about the world. Because any human with good sensory apparatus and the rational powers could participate in the scientific discourse, scientists are inclined to think that scientific arguments ought to be persuasive even to non-scientists.
To the extent that such arguments are set out in ways that make the ground rules of the scientific discourse transparent, they frequently are persuasive to non-scientists.
There are moments, though, when enthusiasm for scientific discourse may manifest itself in ways that overlook what scientists think they know when they’re on the clock as scientists. When folks claim that science is a guaranteed route to truth, we’re dealing with a claim of a different nature than the claims that scientists are hammering out in their accounts of the world.
Scientific knowledge, or scientific faith?
Are we warranted in calling scientific claims knowledge – that is to say, identifying them as true claims that we are justified in believing to be true? Isn’t the methodology of science as powerful an apparatus for building knowledge as we’re likely to get our mitts on?
Maybe we’re as justified as we can be in believing the claims we come to through scientific discourse. Maybe a good number of those claims are even true. Certainly, within the bounds of the scientific discourse, there is a methodological commitment that the claims that remain in play must stand up to certain kinds of scrutiny, and meet a certain burden of proof on the basis of empirical data and inferences that can be publicly interrogated.
To assert that this methodology succeeds in establishing truth depends on certain kinds of metaphysical commitments.
You think the data we collect today can help us make good predictions about what will happen tomorrow? That reflects a metaphysical commitment you have about what kind of universe you’re living in. And there’s nothing wrong with having that commitment. Indeed, it’s what helps some of us get out of bed in the morning. You want to show me the analysis that shows your results are statistically significant? Fine, but don’t forget that the claim of statistical significance rests on metaphysical commitments about the normal distribution of data in the bit of the world you’re studying. If you didn’t start with some metaphysical hunches, there would be no way to do any science. Some folks are happy to acknowledge that these hunches are methodologically useful, but that they aren’t proven to be true or guaranteed not to fail us. That they have worked so far shows them to be useful, but it would be unwarranted to infer from their usefulness to their truth.
In scientific discourse there’s a serious attempt to do the job of describing, explaining, and manipulating the universe with a relatively lean set of metaphysical commitments, and to keep many of the commitments methodological. If you’re in the business of using information from the observables, there are many junctures where the evidence is not going to tell you for certain whether P is true or not-P is true. There has to be a sensible way to deal with, or to bracket, the question of P so that science doesn’t grind to a halt while you wait around for more evidence. Encounter a phenomenon that you’re not sure is explainable in terms of any of the theories or data you have at the ready? Because the scientific rules of the road insist on claims grounded in evidence that is accessible to others, it is methodologically out of bounds to assert “A wizard did it!” Instead, scientists are bound to dig in and see whether further investigation of the phenomenon will yield an explanation. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn’t. In cases where it does not, science is still driven by a commitment to build an explanation in terms of stuff in the natural world, despite the fact that we may have to reframe our understanding of that natural world in fairly significant ways.
Some scientists and friends of science believe the methodology works because the metaphysical hunches that get the discourse off the ground are true. Maybe they are. But because these are metaphysical claims, you can’t establish their truth scientifically. Taking on these metaphysical commitments is an exercise of faith.
Beliefs we come to by other than officially approved scientific methods (i.e., faith).
If the hallmark of scientific claims is their grounding in empirical data and the ability to interrogate them publicly with some hope of coming to a conclusion that will be persuasive to all the parties involved in that interrogation, our non-scientific beliefs do not have the same publicly accessible character. They are not grounded in empirical evidence that others can examine, nor do they offer logical chains of inference others may check for mistakes. They are subjective, not objective.
They are my beliefs.
But if my experience of the world is not the sort of thing someone else could pick up, examine, or have herself, that does not mean that my experience does not exist. Nothing could be realer to me. I just cannot make others feel its pull. To do that, I would need to be able to make my personal experience an object of public scrutiny, something that others could actually experience for themselves.
It wouldn’t be enough to describe my experience, or to spell out what I believe. This falls short of others being able to have my experiences. It doesn’t transmit the impetus that gets me to my belief.
For those who hold that the methods of science are the only good ways to come to beliefs (or to hold onto those beliefs once you notice that you have them), the common line is that any belief that you cannot ground in the empirical facts and good logic does not warrant your belief. This presents a bit of a problem when one holds a belief that the scientific method can be counted on to produce true claims, or even that the laws of nature won’t change next Tuesday. Both are fine beliefs, but neither is grounded in the empirical facts and good logic.
Knowing the difference between public evidence and private belief.
One of the things that scientists learn in their training is how to frame arguments that are persuasive to other scientists – arguments that attend to the empirical evidence and draw the right kind of inferences from such evidence. They discover early on that arguments from authority or from intuitions don’t have the same persuasive power among their fellow scientists. In other words, they learn what kinds of evidence count in the scientific discourse. They understand that claims without the right kind of grounding will not be counted as scientific claims.
This need not stop scientists from believing things that might not stand up as scientific claims – whether believing that there could be immaterial stuff in the universe, or that everything in the universe is at least in principle empirically accessible, that the laws of nature can be counted on to be stable and regular, or that we’ve been on a long run of apparent stability that might soon run out. The crucial thing for the scientist as a scientist is to recognize that these beliefs stand outside of scientific discourse. They don’t count as evidence that ought to persuade anyone else.
An intellectually honest scientist can believe in a deity; she just can’t deploy that belief in a scientific argument. Similarly, an intellectually honest scientist can believe that there’s no deity, but he can’t use that belief to undermine the empirical evidence or logical inferences of a scientist he knows goes to church. If there’s something wrong with the churchgoing scientist’s data or arguments, the problem should be detectable with no recourse whatsoever to the non-scientific beliefs that might be in his head.
What matters, from the point of view of engaging in the scientific discourse, is what you can demonstrate to other participants in that discourse. As far as your scientific activity is concerned, your other beliefs are your own private affair.
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Responses to “Science and belief.”
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 5:15 am 1. chris robinson said …
What do people need to take part in the major conversations of humanity today? First, they need a good education in science (defined by scientists), and this means evolution only in high school biology classes. (Here I respectfully part company with Dr. Freeride’s contention that faith and belief have the same meaning and use in science circles as they do in religious communities.) Second, it also entails a good background in religions. Can you really appreciate literature and poetry without being acquainted with the stories and figures from scriptures? Wouldn’t be a good idea to know something about what the Koran says about jihad, slavery, and women? Some may see this as a cheap attempt on my part to be considered for a Templeton Prize. Would I really compromise my values for 1.25 million dollars? What I’m really looking for is a high level position in the WAAGNFNP Ministry of Culture.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 5:38 am 2. Ben Alpers said …
Chris,
I agree that a “good background in religions” is absolutely essential for understanding the world. But that’s not the same thing as belief in any religion, is it? And isn’t the latter what Dr. Free Ride’s post and, unfortunately for you, the Templeton Prize are about?
A final thought: a post such as this may have the unfortunate side-effect of attracting Lutheran Surrealists.
Nice to see the WAAGNFNP community back up and running in these nice, new digs! Where’s the giant floating head?
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 5:41 am 3. christian h. said …
I agree on the main contention that, say, belief in the existence of God or Gods or whatever is outside science and therefore it isn’t inherently impossible for a scientist to hold those beliefs.
However, I disagree that the belief in the existence of God, for example, is the same kind of belief as the belief that laws of nature are homogeneous in space and time. The former cannot be disproved even in principle; the latter can. If objects suddenly started falling upwards next week, scientists would quickly (before they all die) change their opinion on the immutability of the laws of nature. So while it is certainly true that science rests on certain assumptions, those assumptions have largely been made explicit and can therefore be argued (maybe the one exception is the scientific method itself).
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 5:56 am 4. Karl Steel said …
Right. I’m not sure what we get intellectually if we conflate assumptions, hypotheses, and belief in divinity. Generally speaking, a belief in divinity, it seems to me, is a belief that there’s something–some being, some force–that’s particularly interested in life, especially human life (as most popular faiths are anthropocentric). The scientific methodology is by its nature inhuman, thank goodness.
Can you really appreciate literature and poetry without being acquainted with the stories and figures from scriptures?
Speaking as someone who’s going to be an assistant literature professor in a few months, I say: maybe. Maybe not. But so what? Which scriptures? Which literature? I don’t think it’s possible to understand most medieval Xian literature without some grounding in hagiography, but I certainly can’t see making training in knowing the passion of, say, Margaret obligatory.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 6:43 am 5. Jams said …
The only truth is the giant ball of fire that will soon snap human existence away.
I have a question.
Can one be a scientist and not submit to conclusions arrived at through scientific method?
If yes (and I suspect the answer is yes), what separates a scientist from others?
Formerly Central Content Publisher
ps. I like the site design - it needs more explosions. -
on 21 Mar 2007 at 6:43 am 6. mds said …
A final thought: a post such as this may have the unfortunate side-effect of attracting Lutheran Surrealists.
Wait, that would be unfortunate?
christian h has hit upon it. Even the “metaphysical hunches” that drive science are usually at least potentially falsifiable via their consequences. And since their results have to match up with external reality, they can even be irrelevant. I can use Newtonian mechanics to describe most planetary motion very well, even though some of Newton’s initial metaphysical hunches turned out to be wrong.
None of this is to suggest an aversion for religious belief in scientists, as long as they don’t let their beliefs unduly influence their science.
By the way, thank you, The Proprietors, for the charming e-mail “heads up” about WAAGNFNP. I will treasure it as long as my storage quota allows.
Oh, I do have a few questions about the leadership, specifically about christian h’s role as Tribunus Laticlavius:
(1) Isn’t christian h merely some sort of mathematician, or the like?
(2) Who’s the Legatus? spyder?
(3) As usual, there is no 3.
–mds
It Wasn’t Worth Getting Out of Bed Today, But It Might Be Worth Getting Out of Bed Tomorrow, If Only to Go to the Bathroom, Party
(IWWGOBTBIMBWGOBTIOGBP, Reunified 4th International) -
on 21 Mar 2007 at 7:31 am 7. Onyomous said …
Eh. the idea that the behavior of nature will be the same tommorrow as today is grounded in the observation that the behavior of today are the same as yesterday. Aside from a couple seconds around the big bang when things were so weird (but model-able) that nothing was the same, pretty much since a day or two after the bang it has been the same, or at least observations lead us to conclude as such.
so while we may not have direct evidence as to the immutability of natural behavior, we certainly seem to have 14.7 billion years or so of precedence.
unless you want to get into the brain in a jar hypothesis where in reality only has the illusion of having existed for more than an instant (although even then if the illusion seems to be consistent…).
I mean science knows what a giant assumption to make it is that this corner of the universe is the same as other corners of the universe (copernican principle) and that nothing will change tomorrow. We sit around and have giant freaking discussions and philosophy and ehtics of science sumits devoted to it, trust we are trying to reconcile it with strictly empirical “science”.
but if you start with the assumptions that anything you learn today may or may not be useful tomorrow, well then whats the point of trying to learn anything? I hate to quote him cause he’s a bit of a jack ass but “that way lies madness” -dawkins.A note, the laws of nature is a little off, i mean we use it all the time in science, but nature doesn’t obey special relativity, a Law in the scientific sense is a mathematical model of a phenomenon, which is why despite the discovered inadequacy of Newton’s laws we never say the laws(behavior) of nature changed.
on a personal note, while science may not be able to disprove (as much as you can use the word prove in science) the existance of a god, i feel that it can demonstrate its irrelevence.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 7:43 am 8. Hank Fox said …
(Apologies in advance for the length of this reply.)
In some carefully controlled ways, I agree with the sentiments expressed here. And I actually think this is a brilliant bit of writing. However, I see the whole piece as seriously flawed by a paradoxical combination of the same tunnel-vision scientific viewpoint you gently chide against and an eventual lapse of scientific vision to allow some unscientific conclusions.
(There’s a whole side-essay here, too long to go into, that this paradoxical thought pattern is a defensive strategy evolved by the meme of Faith. I’m popping this in here to make the point that all of us are frequent victims of this meme and its well-honed mechanisms, and it’s extremely tough to get free of them. I hope my disagreement below doesn’t come across as abusive; I don’t mean it to be.)
At some point in reading this, I got a comical picture in my head based on what we face in the U.S. right now. The picture is a scenario of “Religion vs. Science,” a decisive, once-and-for-all-time competition played out on a college football field. Religion was this giant cartoon steamroller moving slowly but unstoppably down the field, with the moving roller presenting a continuous huge-fonted message “RELIGION!! RELIGION!! RELIGION!!” In smaller letters on both sides of the thing is the legend “20 Tons.” Also on the field was a small, diffident professorish fellow, a sort of bespectacled Woody Allen of rationality, weighing all of 110 pounds, dressed in a white lab coat bearing the name tag “Dr. Science” in small Helvetica letters, and holding forth with small, controlled gestures and quiet, careful, precise, measured speech.
Along about the point where you were saying …
Maybe we’re as justified as we can be in believing the claims we come to through scientific discourse. Maybe a good number of those claims are even true. Certainly, within the bounds of the scientific discourse, there is a methodological commitment that the claims that remain in play must stand up to certain kinds of scrutiny, and meet a certain burden of proof on the basis of empirical data and inferences that can be publicly interrogated.
… I imagined the roller bearing him (you?) down onto the ground, slowly rolling up his legs, pelvis and torso, crushing him in complete unconcern as blood spurted, bones splintered with audible crackling sounds, guts popped and flew, and a last arm reached out from beneath the roller to scrabble for the glasses which had fallen off and lay glinting a few feet away in the grass.
The testing grounds for a chain of logic, or a scientific hypothesis, is the real world. No matter how vital the idea seems in your head, it can only be certified as a reality-based-survivor once you set it free in the real world. There is an initial generosity allotted to the releasing of a new hypothesis, but it’s the bloodthirsty generosity of Romans welcoming Christians into the Coliseum arena. If the idea dies under the gleefully-stabbing spears of your bloody-minded fellow scientists, it’s done. If it comes back wounded, you patch it up and let it loose again. And again. And again.
There is no such real-world test for any religious idea. As you say, Faith lives in a subjective zone, in the protected enclave of each person’s head. Rather than be trotted out in public for roundtable tests attended by anybody who cares to show up, each religious idea is kept safe and alive by … Stubbornness. Stupidity. The ignorance of a brain operating in a deliberate mental Safe Mode.
One problem is: The generosity you allow religious, faith-based, subjective believers is not shared by the other team. AND … all of this takes place against a political backdrop – a statistical field in which, no matter the eventual real-world benefits and results of the two mindsets, NUMBERS of believers on both sides matter.
Another thing. Here you are again:
For those who hold that the methods of science are the only good ways to come to beliefs (or to hold onto those beliefs once you notice that you have them), the common line is that any belief that you cannot ground in the empirical facts and good logic does not warrant your belief. This presents a bit of a problem when one holds a belief that the scientific method can be counted on to produce true claims, or even that the laws of nature won’t change next Tuesday. Both are fine beliefs, but neither is grounded in the empirical facts and good logic.
Fine sentiments. But, compared to the real-world results of the two systems, Science and Religion, really … quite a bit too subjective. (I’d also argue that, according to empirical facts and the best of logic, the laws of nature WON’T change next Tuesday.)
The very computer you typed this essay on was produced by the merciless, demanding thought-processes of Science. Nowhere in the silicon-based context by which we receive your words is there any evidence of the value of faith, or the subjective … except in your generous, self-effacing words.
And again, the mirror argument to what you’ve said here is conveyed every day to people and by people who have none of your generosity of mind.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t say what you’re saying. I’m saying that, given the reality of the results, the end product of the two sets of mind are almost infinitely different. One is superior, and PROVEN superior, a thousand times a day in the technological world – over the 300 years or so of formalized science, but reflectively over the whole of human history.
The other is visibly inferior in real-world results, a grain of sand to a mountain … and yet it is POLITICALLY (and I mean this not in the sense of George Bush or neo-cons vs. librools, but in the sense of “social relations between people”) a 20-ton steamroller.
By placing them on the rhetorical stage before us on equally tall stools, by saying HERE is one, but then HERE is another, you’ve used a careful, open, scientific mindset … but you’ve used it to support a rather subjective argument, an argument that largely fails the test of the real world.
What you’ve done here, clearly, is offer a scientific hypothesis. The hypothesis is that the mindset of faith is, in all those off-the-clock hours, acceptable, defensible, and deserving of respect.
IN TERMS OF SCIENCE, the advancing of that hypothesis is reasonable.
IN TERMS OF RELIGION and faith, the hypothesis is borne out.
My problem is, I don’t think you can borrow a strict scientific mindset long enough to advance a hypothesis, and then cancel your subscription when it gets to proving that hypothesis in the real world.
IN TERMS OF SCIENCE, in the same terms of science in which the hypothesis was advanced, it seems to me this hypothesis fails.
Finally, I might also point out that this hypothesis is NOT NEW. It is a very old hypothesis, a flat-earth-and-phlogiston hypothesis, which has been extensively tested and always found wanting.
In my own subjective mind, the REAL main drawback of science and reason, given most of human history but also most of the current population of the U.S., is that we don’t really give it a chance. Rather than looking inward at its hectares of brilliant illumination, we run out to its edge and peer into the darkness, exclaiming, “Oh, look where it fails us!”
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 7:44 am 9. spyder said …
Wow, a thread post regarding something i know a great deal about and yet i am stuck with that David Lindley comment in my head: “there is a fine line between doing more of it or less of it.” Do i really want to wade into this knowing that doing so requires oodles of text and linking and so forth, or shall i just sit happily and silly on the breakwater and watch the waves roll through??mmm
Well at the least i can offer a little reading suggestion that seems to be appropriate; perhaps beginning with Kees Bolle’s The ENTICEMENT of RELIGION. {Disclaimer: Prof Bolle snared me as a hippy undergraduate in the 60’s, convinced me to go to grad school, became my doctoral chair and mentor and friend, and continues to be so} Another critical (relatively new) area of inquiry is the scientific study of consciousness; a field filled with great minds struggling with many of the Dr FreeRide’s most pressing questions. For a quicky overview i would suggest a few skims and scans through PSYCHE: an interdisciplinary journal of research on consciousness. It may help to have a grounding in phenomenology and perception studies, but most of the material, at least online, is really engaging and insightful–as regards our human capacity to construct our consensual agreements about “reality.”
That said: I welcome Spring; i Hail the Minister of Justice for creating this new GNF blooming fusion/fission explosion; i call forth the fingers of the party faithful to join us in what looks to be a great celebration; and YIPPIE. I mean i feel like Slim Pickens lassoing that big nuke and riding it straight to the heart of the sun.
spyder
Minister of Defense and Offense
WAAGNFNP Ministry of Offense and Defense -
on 21 Mar 2007 at 7:49 am 10. The Constructivist said …
My cronies–a pair of philosophers–over at Objectivist v. Constructivist v. Theist have been going back and forth on this and related issues quite often. Back before The Theist joined us, I took my part, but I’ve since limited myself to relatively unserious commenting.
Only thing I have to contribute here is in a similar vein: Kim Stanley Robinson’s The Years of Rice and Salt is, among a whole lot of others things, quite relevant to this debate (not just in the conversations between the characters but also the form of the novel itself).
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 8:00 am 11. paul said …
Somewhat left out of the conversation here is the question of how unitary science has to be. Actual practitioners of the field typically work only in one small corner, and it’s not uncommon for them to hold what others may consider irrational views about any number of areas outside their immediate field of expertise (see Shockley on race, for example). A belief in a deity or something like one, as long as it’s not made operational in certain ways, is one of the less distressing foibles a sicnetist might have.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 8:25 am 12. Dr. Free-Ride said …
Thank you for the thoughtful and useful comments. Proper responses to them would require more time than I can muster right now (as I have to teach the Nuremberg Code, Declaration of Helsinki, and Belmont Report in just over an hour), but I wanted to hit some quick points:
1. I am well aware that “the other team” (i.e., the forces that believe there’s a forced choice and think what you should choose is religion) do not consistently play by the rules I’m suggesting here — that they fail to recognize faith as a matter that isn’t susceptible to proof on the basis of publicly interrogatable evidence, etc. I think that’s a problem. Ministers of my acquaintance (affiliated with major religious denominations, not the WAAGNFNP) also think that’s a problem.
2. I’ll allow as how the claims “there is an immaterial deity” and “the laws of nature are stable” are epistemically different in that we may, at some point, be faced with empirical evidence that undermines the latter. However, while we’re waiting around for that evidence, we *don’t* have anything like a guarantee that the claim is true. It’s quite useful methodologically, and it may be hard not to *believe* in our hearts of hearts that it’s true, but the success we’ve achieved by making this methodological assumption doesn’t *prove* that it’s true. Which really is just to say: there are beliefs you can hold (because there are scientists who *do* hold this belief) that aren’t underwritten by empirical evidence, and it doesn’t make you a stupidhead.
3. RE: “laws of nature”, yeah, in my view electrons and such aren’t “obeying laws” so much as the “laws” are our descriptions of the regularities we are tracking in the phenomena.
4. In terms of how plausible you find my big claim that matters of faith needn’t undermine one’s ability to participate in scientific discourse, some of this will probably come down to psychology (i.e., what you think a human mind can actually hold without going kaplooey). As well, it may make a difference what your opinion is toward scientific antirealism (say, of the sort Bas van Fraassen advocates in The Scientific Image). But I don’t want to wade into those waters unless people are really up for it.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 8:54 am 13. Longhairedweirdo said …
I like this article, because it touches on something that I’ve long felt.
I’ve thought of a way to discuss what science does: science builds models.
It’s not trying to create “true knowledge”, it’s trying to build a good model, based upon certain rules.
Evolution is science, because it’s a good model for how life came to be as it is on earth, even if it turns out to be incorrect. Creationism and intelligent design could be *correct*, they could be *truth*, but they are not *science*, because they are not models built according to scientific principles.
Non-belief in God or a god or gods might be the proper baseline scientific model for the universe (”since there is no evidence, we do not accept that claim as valid”), but science isn’t always the best of models for human experience.
I think faith in other things can let you build other models, and if those models lead to good outcomes, they should be considered as useful as their utility dictates. Whether they are “truth” or not isn’t as important as “are they useful models that help us to accomplish things?”
After all, folks used Newtonian Gravitation long after they knew it was “wrong”, because it was a useful model that helped them accomplish things.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 9:48 am 14. paul said …
Although in theory the belief that there’s a deity-ish thing out there and the belief that the world proceeds according to some regular-ish set of laws may be different, in practice they seem to be very much the same. In my experience the qualities of the belief can be very similar, especially for scientists who are in the process of grasping the beauty and elegance of a particular aspect of the world. Certainly the notions that behind all the ugliness/noise/complication of the world as we know it there is some simple, “beautiful” explanation are very similar.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 10:10 am 15. mds said …
After all, folks used Newtonian Gravitation long after they knew it was “wrong”, because it was a useful model that helped them accomplish things.
Oh, you had to go and bring Newtonian gravitation into it, didn’t you?
(By the by, it’s not just past tense; it’s still possible to use Newtonian gravitation to accomplish things, as long as one isn’t trying, e.g., to set up a rocket convoy between Earth and Mercury.)
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 10:12 am 16. spyder said …
WARNING– ALERT–temporary thread theft taking timeout
Spring 2007 is indeed a wonderful moment to reflect on how it begins with such fervor and vivaciousness. The Chairman-for-Life comes out of hockey season hibernation to be a regular poster on not one but two two two blogs (Pandagon and Crooked Timber), the WAAGNFNP rejoins in splendiferous celebratory glories, our show trial confessed rehabilitated new super agents are up and radiantly posting in full living color, and of course the house of Bushco cards is starting to blow away in the wind.
NOW WE RETURN YOU TO THE REGULARLY SCHEDULED posting:
Human religiousity is pretty amazing actually. So deep within our minds is this quest to “know,” that some of the very first symbolic expressions of early homo sapiens were purely mythological. We Lakota share our experience of it through the term wakantanka, the great mystery of it all. Indeed it is this mystery, this unfolding revelation of all that we still cannot comprehend and grasp that is the focus of celebration and wonder. Science too works at this edge, the frontier of the mystery and wonder. Maybe we all need to recognize that that which is consensually and intuitively known moves behind us as we delve ever deeper into our own and others’ mysteries. For is it not that the domain of string theorists and cosmologists and esoteric mathematicians, is the ‘that’ which is yet to be known, the mystery also??? Yes we know so many things, yet we also know that we don’t know very much at all. As Buffy St Marie once sang: “Off into outer space you go my friend, we wish you bon voyage, and when you get there, we will welcome you again, and still you’ll wonder at it all.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:08 am 17. Jeff said …
There is a point of major divergence between scientific and religious “faiths.”
In religion, that faith becomes belief. Belief is unassailable. There is no debate. Most people feel that it simply isn’t anyone’s place to question a belief.
In science, that faith is often an idea. Even the most basic of assumptions can be deeply debated. And in science, when that faith becomes a belief, the one holding that belief is generally thought of as too biased to be a source of good information.
As a side note, why are we always focusing on the “esoteric mathematicians” when we speak of science? How about those of us who trudge through the daily tasks? I assure you that on a daily basis there are no beautiful frontiers being confronted in many labs, it’s just long hours and sore backs. -
on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:24 am 18. Chris Clarke said …
I have to teach the Nuremberg Code, Declaration of Helsinki, and Belmont Report in just over an hour
Fascinating.
What are you teaching them?
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:26 am 19. spyder said …
why are we always focusing on the “esoteric mathematicians” when we speak of science? How about those of us who trudge through the daily tasks?
my bad, but i was using that adjective to be more inclusive of all of you, in the sense that most of our population think perceive the spectrum of mathematicians as somewhat analogous to the other sciences: that there are teachers (again a spectrum), users (statiticians, engineers, architects, et al), and those who chose a path to do the study and research. Please excuse the discriminator and accept my apology.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:27 am 20. christian h. said …
As one of those “esoteric mathematicians” - whatever that is - most of what we do is mundane, too. It consists largely of staring at a blank piece of paper until frustration overwhelms motivation.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:28 am 21. Dr. Free-Ride said …
Another quick comment (before dashing to teach another class): in the science I come from (chemistry) the models can be very useful without being true in anything like a literal sense. The molecular model kit representation of your polycyclic molecule conveys an awful lot that we think is informative (about bond angles and strain and such) even though we know the molecule we’re modeling *isn’t* made of little plastic balls and connectors — so while the model isn’t precisely true, it conveys *something* right about the real thing it’s a model of.
The key point I want to make here is that things that *aren’t* true — that we fully recognize not to be true — are still useful within science because they get us closer to what truth we can have (at least, what truth we can establish by authorized means — possibly we could stumble upon a truth and not have the good to *demonstrate* it to be true once and for all).
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:29 am 22. mds said …
The key point I want to make here is that things that *aren’t* true — that we fully recognize not to be true — are still useful within science because they get us closer to what truth we can have
Indeed, as long as it is accepted that the useful fiction is a fiction. If students believe that a molecule really is made of little plastic balls and connectors, then the model is no longer useful, but crippling.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:31 am 23. Foucault said …
I’m so glad the WAAGNFNP is back with a blog of its (our) own.
And I’m delighted that we’ve returned from the blast only to look back into abyss, waiting, waiting for the GNF once again. Fafnir, and Fafnir now, I can feel it coming!
Long live Gojira and the party faithful.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:38 am 24. Brian said …
But the problem with your point, Dr. F-R is that we know what’s untrue about the bond angle models, and knowing that is precisely what makes the models useful. What we are concerned about, both in Science and in our other metaphysical commitments, are the things that we don’t know aren’t true.
I would further argue that whatever false steps we make that lead us to the ultimate truth (what we can have of it), are only useful in so far as the truth they lead us to is useful, at which point such false steps are corrected or allowed for.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:38 am 25. Jams said …
I like the “useful model” idea, but it does lead me to wonder:
Is forcing scientists to abandon their faith-based beliefs (or abandon science) a useful model? Or similarly, can scientists be discredited across all domains because they are non-scientific in some or even most domains?
I think the answer has to be no. We are all ignorant (aka. under the false belief) of a great many things. Our lives can be described as a transition from complete ignorance to something resembling a little bit of understanding - some people more so than others. To expect individuals to have completed this undertaking before they can contribute to science would leave us all unqualified as scientists, and that’s not very useful.
Mind you, if you believe in the sacred, you are probably not a good scientist, or at least you’re a very limited one.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:45 am 26. Brian said …
The problem with that point, Dr. F-R, is that the models are useful because we know what is not true about them. What we are more concerned with (I think), both in Science and in our other metaphysical commitments, are the things we don’t know aren’t true.
Furthermore, whatever false steps are made that lead us to ultimate truth (what we can have of it), are only useful in so far as the ultimate truth is useful, and, once the truth is known, are corrected or accounted for.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:51 am 27. Suezboo said …
Just popping by to say Hi to all nuclear fans.I was touched to be emailed and informed of this auspicious occasion.Your resident dumbass will be staying in touch.My degree is so archaic that ..
..Foucault wasn’t even pre-modern yet.
..SA was still a British dominion.
..Bill Gates was in kindergarten.etc.etc.
So I occasionally feel just a tad out of touch with you whippersnappers but I enjoy the company. -
on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:55 am 28. christian h. said …
It seems to me, that, fitting the nature of the post, some inversion of the timeline occurred. Specifically, could you let me know if Brian’s comment 23. wasn’t posted after 27.? Intriguing.
Oh, and welcome back Foucault!
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 11:58 am 29. Foucault said …
Hi All,
Thanks christian h!
I am so glad that we are all back to waiting for the glorious return of the GNF! Long live Gojira and the party faithful!
And Suezboo, I was, indeed, around and kicking pre-modernly while you were getting your degree. I’m sort of like Max, the 1000 year old mouse.

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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:01 pm 30. Brian said …
This is a really nice post, and some good comments too, but I don’t think we’ve quite come around to making „the case that there is not a forced choice between being an intellectually honest scientist and being a person of faith.“
It seems to me that the precise epistemological nature of the scientific method itself is not the controlling factor here. After all, this line of argument rather seems to presume that if we could use the scientific method to validate itself, the scientist of Faith would be open (or more open) to the living lie charge, and I don’t think that’s true.
The question seems to me to depend more on the question of whether a commitment to the epistemological construct of Science as the best available means of generating knowledge or ascertaining truth necessitates that one treat beliefs that fall outside scientific discourse as highly suspect.
Of course, I’m not saying this hasn’t been addressed, both directly and indirectly by Dr. Free Ride and commenters, just that it could use a little more fleshing out.
After all, most of the tools of scientific discourse are available to us all the time (logic, reasoning, observation), it’s just that in science we use them in a very specific way. If I use these tools as a scientist according to the scientific method and believe* in their efficacy, shouldn’t I have faith* in their application outside of scientific discourse? I don’t stop being swayed by logic just because I’m not asking a scientific question, I just have to try and be aware of how the logic is grounded.
So it seems to me that the strong form of the “living a lie” argument is that if you are committed to things like logic, reason, and observation (which in order to be a scientist you need to be), then you should be just as committed to them when addressing questions outside the purview of science as in.
* I’m using these words deliberately and with sarcasm, in hopes of being rude to the idea that belief/faith in supernatural forces/entities is even of the same kind as belief that the laws of nature will not change next Tuesday. Of course, we can perhaps have this conversation later – how about next Tuesday?
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:02 pm 31. Brian said …
OH MY GOD - THE LAWS OF TIME AND SPACE HAVE CHANGED, AND IT’S ONLY WEDNESDAY!!
I thought those comments were just eaten..
This is comment #32, by the way…
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:03 pm 32. Foucault said …
Hmm… the time *does* seem a bit out of joint in terms of the sequence in which our comments are posted.
I believe that the logic of linear time has come into collision with the “magical thinking” discussed in Dr. Free Ride’s blog post.
As a result, a temporal vortex has been created. Perhaps the GNF feeds on our comments, digests them sequentially, and then returns them to us achronologically? So long as this is for the good of the Party, I support it.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:05 pm 33. Brian said …
Something else, and this time more of a question:
Could it be that the truth/utility thing is a false dichotomy?
After all, in science, things are useful because they are true, if they are not true, then they are not useful. (and indeed, will probably cause you no end of pain and anguish while you waste time, grant money, and years of your life wondering why these #!@$%& experiments won’t work!)
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:06 pm 34. Brian said …
Quick question of nettiquite - is posting comments outside of the normal sequence of the space-time continuum considered trolling?
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:08 pm 35. christian h. said …
Well, it seems to me that this here blog seemed to be at CDT-3; now it suddenly switched to CDT-4. We’ve lost one hour. I’m going to manually adjust some timestamps to try and get the comments roughly in order…
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:13 pm 36. Seattle said …
“There is a point of major divergence between scientific and religious “faiths.”
In religion, that faith becomes belief. Belief is unassailable. There is no debate. Most people feel that it simply isn’t anyone’s place to question a belief.”I’d say that this statement indicates a lack of quality time spent with true believers. Nobody debates like members of a religion, and while it is easy to conclude from outside observation a certain monolithic approach to faith, in reality it is full of debate and schism. Close association with humans, and all that.
For many years now science has appeared to me to be a brick wall slowly constructed-study by study-an attempt to define all of reality. Faith might direct a specific member of the scientific community to NOT study a particular area, but that doesn’t mean that they couldn’t or wouldn’t apply the scientific method to some other topic. Call me simplistic…
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:15 pm 37. christian h. said …
Oh, and Suezboo, welcome back, too. I moved Dr. Free Rides last comment to a point where the following discussion makes sense. Sorry about this. The time progression is locally coherent as far as I can ascertain, so from now on comments should again appear in correct order.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:31 pm 38. christian h. said …
For many years now science has appeared to me to be a brick wall slowly constructed-study by study-an attempt to define all of reality.
If that is so, then we certainly allow for that wall to be torn down and completely reconstructed periodically.
I think Onyomous made an important point way back in comment 7. It is my impression that the main problem some have with a scientist also holding religious beliefs is that trusting modern science rules out almost everything that is part of those beliefs, with the sole exception of the existence of a supernatural being. However, all religions that are actually existing seem to require (a) supernatural being(s) that act and influence people’s lives. I am not saying to be a Christian one has to believe in the physical reality of resurrection or anything - but can one be a Christian (I use this religion since I grew up in it) and believe in a God so distant as to never act in human-observed reality?
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:42 pm 39. Onyomous said …
“After all, in science, things are useful because they are true, if they are not true, then they are not useful.”
well define true…
newtonian mechanics isn’t “true” but it’s very useful.
neither is the bohr model of the electon, also useful.Capitol T Truth is kinda like proof, science doesn’t deal with proof we deal with evidence, and we don’t deal with whether something is true so much as if it’s accurate. Astrophysics is a big one for that, we’re essentially reverse engineering phenomena that make geolgic time seem fast, so we really wouldn’t swear to much, just claim that things are accurate.
also i’d like to point out again that science (astrophysics in particular) doesn’t like its dependence on the copernican principle (both for space and time) at all, partly because it does require a certain amount of belief.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:44 pm 40. Jams said …
Could it be that the truth/utility thing is a false dichotomy? - Brian
I’m not sure it’s been presented as a dichotomy, but rather, as attributes of an object that can exist together, individually, or not at all (no one has touched not neither (XOR) yet).
[…] so while the model isn’t precisely true, it conveys *something* right about the real thing it’s a model of. - Dr. Free-Ride
The danger, I think, is when you start to believe a model is entirely true because it conveys *something* that is true.
I don’t think a useful lie or even a potential truth becomes true because it’s usefulness is true. Unless, of course, utility is the only criteria for truth.
Where does art fit into this truth stuff?
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 12:53 pm 41. Seattle said …
So here’s the rub-and I speak as a person who has never held any religious beliefs-what percentage of humanity believes in a higher being of some kind? My ballpark guess is: the vast majority. Are we to understand that the tiny shining minority of true, religion free scientists are the only ones producing quality, trustable work? I smell elitism there.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 1:42 pm 42. Aloysius said …
Well of course holding some non-rational beliefs doesn’t automatically make someone a stupidhead, nor does it prevent them from doing excellent science. To the best of my knowledge, nobody in the hardcore atheist camp has suggested that people be blacklisted or shunned or expelled from the halls of academia purely on the grounds that they believe in purely subjective things beyond the (present) reach of the scientific methodology. Everyone has purely subjective beliefs and everyone knows this and this isn’t a problem. I firmly believe that Diamond Dogs was David Bowie’s best album. A good friend of mine says Hunky Dory. This is a question that science cannot resolve, even though I am clearly right and he is clearly wrong. Having a belief that cannot be backed up by plump, firm, ripe, rational techniques does not make me intellectually dishonest, and I’m fairly sure that Dawkins or Dennett or PZ Myers or what’s left of Carl Sagan would back me up on that.
On the other hand, if I were to go ’round saying that everyone who didn’t like Diamond Dogs should be gassed like badgers, then we’d have a problem.
What you do in the privacy of your own head is your own business. Intellectual honesty though demands that we acknowledge that some of our beliefs are not rational and cannot be backed up by any form of argument that might be palatable to a sceptic. Intellectual honesty also demands that we do not live our lives as if these unverifiable subjectivities are in fact objective universal truths that apply to everyone. Why? Because people are often wrong. We know how prone to error human beings are. We know there are people who think God speaks to them or that aliens stuff things up their fannies because of glitches in the structure or functioning of their brains. If any subjective belief we may hold cannot be distinguished by a large number of external observers from madness, then acting on that belief is utterly irresponsible and possibly monstrous. For a scientist to believe in reincarnation is not necessarily intellectually dishonest. For a scientist to shoot people in the hopes that they’ll have better luck in the next life certainly is. Believing in God is not necessarily dishonest. Telling your children that they’ll burn in Hell for all eternity if they have sex before marriage is.
Your own beliefs are your private affair. Yes. I agree completely. And so will even the most hardened, jaded, bitter, Christ-bashing curmudgeonly atheist scientist who isn’t barking mad. The arguments only flare up when people start acting in the wider world as if their personal, private beliefs are true.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 2:20 pm 43. Seattle said …
“For a scientist to shoot people in the hopes that they’ll have better luck in the next life certainly is.”
TOTAL SIDELINE
Thanks for that-I suddenly flashed back to Alfred Bester’s “The Computer Connection” in which the main character goes around killing epileptics in an attempt to create immortals…gains a reputation as a mass murdering monster-until he succeeds.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 2:27 pm 44. Dr. Free-Ride said …
Aloysius, if online discourse counts (and maybe it shouldn’t here), I’ve witnessed people display the barking-mad behavior you describe and insist that there are private beliefs that TOTALLY undermine your scientific street cred, even if you keep them private.
Also, Bowie’s best album was almost certainly Scary Monsters.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 2:57 pm 45. Brian said …
well define true…
True is right, in the sense that one has made the correct conclusions from the evidence, and any subsequent experiment or technology which requires the correctness of those conclusions can be successful or fruitful. False, in this sense means that subsequent experiment or technology requiring the correctness of said conclusions will not be successful/fruitful.
newtonian mechanics isn’t “true” but it’s very useful.
Unless F=ma no longer holds, then yes, newtonian mechanics is true, it’s just not true everywhere, all the time.
neither is the bohr model of the electon, also useful.
Ah, you had to go quantum on my ass, didn’t you? Well, fair enough… I would say that it is only useful in so far as it is true, and that this statement holds even if we are not sure of exactly where, when, why, and how it is true. As Jams above says (quotes?), the mistake would be “when you start to believe a model is entirely true because it conveys *something* that is true.”
When you do that, utility suffers.
I’m not trying to posit a utiltarian definition of truth, rather point out that within the rubrik of Science, this largely holds, and wonder to what extent something that is not true can be useful. I don’t know the answer, I just think there is some fertile ground here, although some people may know better…
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 3:51 pm 46. paul said …
The whole “knowing how the model isn’t true” thing seems like a multi-edged sword to me. In physics (and to an extent in other sciences) it’s a matter of accepted practice that when new experimental results come in that go against a particularly beautiful theory, the first response is to cast doubt on the results (Cue Kuhn for the longer version). And in economics, of course, the trick seems to be about revising human behavior until it fits the nice tractable models better.
Perhaps one issue here is that we haven’t really defined what constitutes “science” or being a scientist. When you get down to the slogging part, it’s quite possible to believe in nothing like classical scientific method, and act accordingly, and still produce remarkably useful results.
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 4:50 pm 47. Jeff said …
Seattle -
Re. #36, I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home. I am an atheist, and I’ve developed an abiding (and probably unhealthy) distrust of religion. My experience with “believers” was not one of open debate. It was 18 years of unquestioningly believing what the heads of the church said. It’s not that I doubt those other sorts exist, it’s just that I’ve never seen it. My biases surely show through. -
on 21 Mar 2007 at 4:56 pm 48. Jams said …
Perhaps one issue here is that we haven’t really defined what constitutes “science” or being a scientist - paul
Yeah, that was my question too. I think, based on what’s been said so far: science refers to knowledge generated-from/subject-to scientific method; and a scientist is one who attempts to produce science.
I think, Dr Free-Ride’s point is that one can produce things other than science, but still produce science non-the-less - non-sense with one hand and perfectly good science with the other. That suggests that being a scientist is more like a profession than a way of life.
No one would wonder if a soccer player could still be a soccer player if he also knitted doilies. Or would they?
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 5:03 pm 49. The Constructivist said …
ah, hearing from the mathematicians brought me back to my undergrad years when two great math profs cajoled me into double majoring in math (alongside the English major I had already declared). I remember well the feeling of doing math proofs–like jumping off a plane and hoping your chute would deploy at some point. That feeling more than anything was what lead me to grad school in English (and got me into structuralism, after which all hope was lost for my brain). Thanks, y’all!
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on 21 Mar 2007 at 5:42 pm 50. Lee Glidewell said …
Ahh, the WAAGNFNP. Given how rarely I commented on Dr. B’s blog, I’m surprised that you found me. Nevertheless, I’m totally in. Happy hunting!
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on 22 Mar 2007 at 4:40 am 51. JP.Stormcrow said …
I will second, third and ninth the comments on the importance of models, and the stuff of Science being the production of increasingly useful models as opposed to the direct “truth”. I would love to put in a quote from Henry Miller that I have lost, that went something to the effect that if we were confronted with the true reality of every moment we would recoil in horror. Instead I will just use a Steven Wright quote that I used over at Dr. Free-Ride’s place in a different (but related) context.
I also have a full-size map of the world. I hardly ever unroll it.
A second question I have is the following. I agree with much of what you say vis-a-vis the current “explicit” scientific enterprise which has a centuries-long history. However, before that there clearly were a wealth of useful models of the world derived much less formal methods - “naive” scientific methods - but which still differed from the process which generated pure “faith”-based beliefs. Though, I guess the further back you go, the more the two merge. (on very shaky anthropological ground here.)
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on 22 Mar 2007 at 2:27 pm 52. Aloysius said …
I think, or at least hope, that the Internetteers who go to such insane lengths to criticise faith are mostly just intoxicated by the fumes of freedom wafting down their Internets tubes. It’s tough being an atheist in large parts of America; growing up in Iowa, any time I’d mention my disbelief in God, even in a mild form like expressing scepticism towards the Biblical flood, I’d be threatened with the ol’ hellfire by at least one person. One of my teachers in high school encouraged me to keep it tightly under wraps, citing the example of Madalyn Murray O’Hair of all the outrageously overblown things. It’s different here in the tubes. It’s easy to get carried away. I hope, if you confronted the hyper-uber-rationalists on their rhetoric, they’d back it down…
Because judging someone based on an intangible, unmeasurable, ambiguous and possibly tenuous beliefs isn’t terribly scientific at all. Whatever science is, it has to privilege what we can measure and what we can explore over less tangible factors.
Here, for example, is some very scientifically valuable data on the deliciousness of David Bowie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmFpSmKb7lI
Until someone builds me a faithometer capable of measuring sincerity of belief to a precision of one micro-Augustine, what someone thinks can’t have anything like the importance of what someone does. Or how they look in a clown suit.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 4:03 am 53. mds said …
First!
Hang on, where did all those other posts come from?
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 6:30 am 54. Russell said …
Yes, a scientist can believe anything at all, no matter how foolish, and as long as that belief is kept private and not allowed to interfere with their public scientific work, the latter will not be tarnished by that. A chemist who privately believes in fairies likely has a pretty easy job maintaining that wall between private and public belief, as the behavior of fairies can be restricted to toadstools and certain phases of the moon, and generally kept apart from reaction vessels or bond angles.
But is it intellectually honest to believe in fairies? Is the answer “yes,” as long as the believer brackets it off as merely their private belief?
I will concede, from the start, that that question does not depend on whether the believer is a scientist. The question likely is answered the same whether the believer is a librarian or a chemist. It seems to me the focus on whether a scientist can be intellectually honest in adopting religious faith obscures the real question, whether anyone can be intellectually honest in adopting a religious faith.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 6:43 am 55. BChurch said …
Are you viewing justification (in the context of knowledge) as black and white dichotomous state? To my mind, it’s more of a sliding scale. Perhaps one can said to be justified in one’s belief that a candle is in front of you, by simply seeing the candle there. But one would have stronger justification if one walked over and picked the candle up, weaker justification if one saw a blurry light in the distance and inferred the candle’s presence. This distinction is an important one.
The epistemic justification for continuity in the laws of nature is extremely strong. The epistemic justification for the existence of a diety is extremely weak, relying solely on various ancient mythologies. You’ve set up a strict epistemic standard by which both claims fail, but so what? As Decartes knew, by the strictest of standards all of our claims about the world fail. That doesn’t mean there’s no difference between positing the computer I’m typing on, and positing a fat jolly man at the North Pole who delivers me presents once a year. The claims are quite obviously not on equal footing,
Relax your epistemic standards, and you’ll arrive at the laws of nature far before you arrive at the existence of God. Science has tacitly chosen to do just this, and although perhaps the epistemic line is arbitrary, it is completely necessary to draw the line somewhere. And again, even if you choose a stricter standard, it still doesn’t get you to the conclusion that the claims of each are equally likely to be true.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 7:02 am 56. Dan said …
“Believing in God is not necessarily dishonest. … The arguments only flare up when people start acting in the wider world as if their personal, private beliefs are true.”
Wait a second here… So are people to close off their faith-based actions entirely? Really?
Does this count volunteering to feed/house/clothe the poor? Telling the truth when it’s painful to do so? What about nuturing a family-like group of fellow believers? Forgiving someone who’s caused one harm? Staying faithful to one’s spouse? (I mean, if there’s one counter-rational action for a long-lived adult, that’s it.)
Yes, the world is a worse place from many people acting on what they believe — it is also a better. Maybe we should replace the broad brush with a narrower one of finer bristles to color inside the lines a bit more carefully?
(That was painful, but when a metaphor has its grip on you, well, one starts acting as if…)
One of the clearest, most consistent lessons in Scripture is the need for humility. Seems a fitting action for the world outside my head, as much as that inside it.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 7:11 am 57. Daniel said …
Religion and science are like apples and oranges, sort of a cliche, but they are two different paradigms. Science is primarily a methodology regarding how to understand and catalog everything in the world and all phenomena in the world that we are curious about. The pursuit of science has had great success and utility. So, science is given great credence, because it has developed a good reputation at producing utility.
It is not necessary to have a definition of science for science to work and be useful. It is not necesssary to have a definition of knowlege, or of truth either. But very bright people wonder about these things. So, there is also a philosophical side to science. Many practitioners of science, students of science, and lovers of science seek to fulfill their understanding of the world with a philosophy of science, and what it means to “know” something, and what it means to “prove” something, even though science continues along, with its unending utility, with or without these discussions.
Most people, however, don’t care about science at all, just the utility that science provides them. With regards to scientists and religious belief, a scientist is just a human being, like everyone else. The personal lives and beliefs of scientists are not any more logical or orderly than anyone else’s. Logical thinking takes place in a tiny section of the cerebral cortex, but there is all the rest of the brain up there which is what makes us human. So, you will find a wide range of relgious belief among scientists, just as you will among any population.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 7:15 am 58. BChurch said …
Dan,
“Yes, the world is a worse place from many people acting on what they believe — it is also a better. Maybe we should replace the broad brush with a narrower one of finer bristles to color inside the lines a bit more carefully?”
Or, if you’ll allow that there are purely secular and rational motivations for doing those things, we could just scrap the whole religious motivation all together. If we are to cherry pick passages from religious texts that we happen to like, and leave out those we don’t, why not just use those same instincts to build rational and secular ethics from the ground up? That way, we can still get motivation for helping the poor, without having some people (who fill the religious lines in differently) get motivation for blowing themselves up to receive virgins in paradise.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 8:04 am 59. Dan said …
“Or, if you’ll allow that there are purely secular and rational motivations for doing those things, we could just scrap the whole religious motivation all together.”
No, you’re right. People are rational creatures who have no self-interest, no passions, no inherent inclinations, just blank slates who will accept as their ethical whatever we decide in committee; who will always — to pick an example — gladly acknowledge that their long-held physics beliefs were bunk and string theory doesn’t actually hold up to experimental scrutiny. Or whatever.
Your line of reasoning strikes me as parallel to the Libertarian impulse: People will do whatever is good, ethical or liberty-oriented if we just let them alone. I don’t buy it. Secular is not synonymous with rational; lack of rules doesn’t equate to freedom. Are there secular (which is not, thank you, synonymous with rational) motivations for behaving ethically? (Whatever THAT is?) Sure. It’s the herd mentality. Change the direction of the herd, and most of us will follow.
In which case, there is no right or wrong, with all the messy implications. So, really, the jihadists aren’t all that bad, are they? They just have a different set of group ethics that suits their environment. We should really try to be more understanding of that.
I just don’t buy it, though. Libertarian politics don’t work in real life; and secular ethics can be just as malleable, impermanent, violent and loathsome as any theists’. To my mind, true religion (yes, yes) is not groupthink; that’s a human impulse, not a religious one; no, it is, rather, wrestling with truth, making difficult decisions standing for the right against the mob. Neither centralized planning nor anarchy is a functional system, in politics or ethics, no matter how sane or idealistic they appear.
Sorry for the long-windedness.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 8:26 am 60. Al Martinez said …
There is a tendency in discussions like these to equate faith and belief with religion. Faith and belief have an emphasis as positive values only in the Religions of the Book. Only in these religions is there an obsession with the state and correctness of your interior thoughts and opinions. In the pagan world there was no such concern, the Neo-Platonic philosophers thought faith was a kind of mental illness (see Dodd, “Pagan and Christian in an Age of Anxiety”). Buddhism is empirical, and does not require leaps of faith. I think Gurdjieff (Sufi/Orthodox mystic) says somewhere that any religious proposition that makes no rational sense to you should be ignored.
By framing the argument as being between “faith” and Science you are not really making an argument about religion as a whole, only about the relationship between Christianity, Judaism and Islam and Science. You are not really saying anything about other religions and their respect or lack of respect for reason, because faith may not be a positive value in those religions.
There is a truism that “All the Great Religions Teach the Same Thing”. They do not. At all. And there is a kind of easy arrogance among Christians that they can easily understand other religions, because they are all the same. This is wrong, it really requires a lot of effort to put aside Christian preconceptions about what religion is and is for and really understand the world of another religion. The great religions teach very different things and emphasize different issues.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 8:48 am 61. BChurch said …
Dan,
You’re completely misreading me. Let me try again.
So in order to “fill in the lines” in your metaphor, to decide between the good parts of religion and the bad, upon what are we relying? Certainly not religion itself, since that is the object of our meddlings. Whatever the answer, then why not just have that as the foundation, and get rid of religion– which at that point would just be window dressing? You’d be left with a purely secular morality based on emotion, and hopefully, tempered by reason.
Personally I do in fact think there is a shifting zeitgeist of consensus morality, but I am certainly open to the possibility of some fundamental evolutionary/biological programming towards empathy. But that’s besides the point. When you “fill in your lines” with that narrow brush, you’ve already abandoned religion as fundamental arbiter of ethics. So why keep it? Especially when insisting that it’s true (even if you ignore parts you don’t like), lends credence to those who aren’t so discerning, and and up commit ting horrible and irrational acts?
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 8:49 am 62. Barton Paul Levenson said …
[[Eh. the idea that the behavior of nature will be the same tommorrow as today is grounded in the observation that the behavior of today are the same as yesterday. ]]
I would advise you to read Hume. You can’t extrapolate from past experience to future experience without the assumption that tomorrow will be like today. It is only an assumption, taken on faith.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 9:05 am 63. Hank Fox said …
Dan, I think you misunderstood what BChurch was saying. What *I* think he was saying is that compassion is natural to humans, and that you don’t have to have religion to have compassion or to perform compassionate acts.
I can’t quite figure where all that business about blank slates and Libertarian beliefs came into the discussion, but … you seem to imply that there’s no right or wrong without religion, and that’s just not the case.
In fact, as I think BChurch was trying to say, if we were to embark on attempting to understand the REAL and RATIONAL reasons for human compassion, rather than continue to be stuck to the sectarian tarbaby that goodness comes solely from this-that-or-the-other holy book, we’d get further along the path to having a compassionate society.
Rather than be continuously at war about, for instance, how the Baptist Christian sky-daddy wants us to deal with starving orphans or how the Shia Muslim sky-daddy wants us to deal with starving orphans, maybe we could simply ignore sky-daddies altogether and just focus on dealing with starving orphans … with the natural compassion we all innately share.
As members of the human species, compassion exists in us whether we understand it or not, whether we have explanations for it or not. But we could probably take fuller advantage of it if we understood it better.
Religion, which by its very nature is a blaring foghorn of preaching rather than a sensitive microphone for listening and studying, gets in the way of that understanding.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 9:24 am 64. Dan said …
Al M., you’ve a salient and central point there. (Not sure if you’re addressing me or the discussion generally; it doesn’t matter.) And it feeds into the give-and-take between BChurch and I. For my part, I am Christian and I realize that all religions do NOT teach the same things. No, indeed. And I don’t think “religion” is a sanitized, sane, universal creed. They are not all equal, not all good, not all leading along the same path.
“Religion” in most discussions seems, though, to be a short-hand for rejection of purely materialistic thought; and that might be useful.
Anyway, many self-professed “Christians” show little evidence of a changed and humble heart. Given the choice between a boss, an institution or a government that was self-proclaimed secular and self-proclaimed “religious”, of any stripe, I’d prefer the secular, because I suppose it would leave me alone — alone to gather and worship and think as I would.
Given the increasingly Inquisitionesque tone of many athiests, though, perhaps that’s an unsafe assumption.
I have a friend in mind as I type, a good friend, a non-believer with whom I’ve had to wrestle with ethical issues. (We worked in a small-town news company together; and our work was influential in the community.) And though we nominally started from different faith perspectives, we very often agreed — because we both consciously tried to do the right thing, rather than the easy; attempted humility rather than pride; kindness rather than cruelty; community-mindedness rather than selfishness; truth rather than falsehood; humanity rather than institutionalism; hard, painful fact rather than easy fiction. (We strived. We did not always achieve.)
See, some will say, your friend is an ethical man completely unmoved by the silly fantasies of religion! Join his rational approach, and unweight yourself of your mental baggage.
But, say I, he — and others, including in this discussion online — operate under deep cultural values which ARE religious. They are, specifically, Christian. I don’t think it cherry-picking to suggest that the notion of wrestling with ideas to arrive at a truth, which is findable if not realizable, is a Christian idea.
Self-proclaimed rationalists claim it, but the search for truth — and decency — didn’t start with the Enlightenment. And the search, the struggle, doesn’t end with any set of material observations.
Dan
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 9:45 am 65. Hank Fox said …
Given the increasingly Inquisitionesque tone of many athiests, though, perhaps that’s an unsafe assumption.
Ha-ha. Good one. Let’s bash some atheists. I mean, golly, if they’d only sit back and shut up, and just continue to live in over-careful silence and isolation, as they have for so long, it would be soooooo much better for everybody.
This tentative atheistic assertiveness, this speaking out … well, it DOES seem just like the Inquisition. Critically examining the religiousness that permeates our society, well, to a nice Christian, it’s just like being burned to death by priestly henchmen.
All this questioning and demanding of equal rights has got to stop.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 10:02 am 66. Daniel (not that other guy, Dan) said …
This discussion is getting far afield from the original posting, which was about the validity of a scienctist’s religious values and beliefs.
As I said in a previous comment, religion and science are different paradigms and are in no way comparable, or relatable. Whether religious people would admit it or not, all of religion is subjective and speculative in nature. Science is a methodology of research. They are not comparable in any way. Although there is a philosophical side to science, that philosophy is not actually science, and science continues, with or without that philosophy.
There is actually no clash between science and religion. Some religious people may feel that science is threatening to their religious faith, and may feel hostility towards science, but that has no effect on science one way or the other. The practice of science, with its subsequent utility, will continue. The debate about Creation vs Evolution is really a philosophical debate, that does not relate to science; the practice of science continues, with or without that debate.
Even if any individual scientist has an awkward religious belief that seems to conflict with scientific findings, that is only a tiny problem for that particular person and the people who may know him and argue with him, but has no relevance to the general practice of science.
With respect to religion in general, the world in which we dwell is still enshrouded in many dark and frightening mysteries, even with all that we know from science. This is, or should be, the realm of religious speculation. Scientists are entitled, like anyone, to develop religious beliefs regarding the nature of man, the existence of God, the soul, death, Heaven, and things like that.
Scientists are not soulless, mechnical, emotionless beings. Scientists get drunk, commit adultery, lie, cheat, and steal just like everyone else, just like religious people. Aside from being well-educated, scientists are pretty much like everyone else.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 10:12 am 67. Al Martinez said …
Dan,
The dichotomy of material/spiritual is an inheritance from the Greeks, and is not a universal scheme of how to organize the universe. So to say that all religions are about one side of this dichotomy doesn’t make any sense. I’m not sure that trying to figure out what all religions share, or what the “universal religion” is is really a useful pursuit. People have tried.
I think Confucianism is an interesting case. It is mainly concerned about the nature of personal and social virtue. It is largely uninterested in deistic questions. In this sense it is very similar to late paganism with the concern of the philosophers to define the nature of virtue and what constitutes a good life. Is this religious? Are you religious if you live your life in the inquiry of what it is to have a virtuous life, but you don’t really care that much or concern yourself with questions of deity and cosmology? Confucianism, or the inquiry into the nature of virtue is not a scientific pursuit, but it could be said to be a rational pursuit and the inquiry can be conducted in a rational way.
Science and this sort of religion are compatible, as there can not be a “Science of Virtue”.
I think people are too preoccupied with the interior scenery their own opinions (that is what they “believe” or “don’t believe”) and whether these opinions are shared or correct. The truth doesn’t care what we “believe” one way or the other, it just is. It seems to me we should simply be humble in our search for an understanding what is true and good, and not so preoccupied with being “right” and beating other people up for being “wrong”.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 5:21 pm 68. MahlerFreak said …
I grew up in an evangelical Christian household, attended Christian schools well into college, and now coexist, mostly peacefully, with an extended family who are almost exclusively evangelical Christian.
I am not a scientist, but have made a career in technology, working as a technologist, and am strongly driven by evidence and outcomes in my career and daily life.
I do not consider myself a Christian in the evangelical sense. I can’t absolutely prove the Resurrection one way or the other, but I can take a position on what I believe to be the most persuasive evidence - that the Resurrection was a human construct rather than a metaphysical event. The distinction may seem uninteresting in the context of this conversation - it just puts me in the “belief in science” camp. But to me, it means a bit more.
I have a strong personal belief that morality is ultimately about outcomes - that I can believe all I want about the need for compassion, but if my ideology and behavior do not create compassionate outcomes, then I have failed morally. My personal experience is that my evangelical relatives think about morality quite differently - that morality is primarily about right thinking and good intent, regardless of the scientifically judged probable outcome of that thinking and intent.
In a very fundamental sense, science does assert something about morality - that it is “better” to decide your course of action based on formally structured accumulations of evidence and inference from both external and internal human sources, than to “blindly” trust your internal “belief” of what is true. I subscribe wholeheartedly to this scientific assertion myself. And yet …
As Aloysius so cleverly pointed out, there is much we consider important in our lives that is not easily amenable to scientific analysis. To be blasphemous, some of it is even more significant than the determination of Bowie’s best album. For instance:
I doubt anyone on this forum disagrees that murder, racism, or sexism are “wrong”. At the same time, we seem to agree that compassion is “right”. Yet all of these “right” or “wrong” behavioral traits have been traced, with varying degrees of certainty, to evolutionary adaptations. Science can tell us how these traits came about - but tells us nothing about whether we should resist or embrace them in the conduct of our lives.
This is not an argument for religion, per se, nor an argument for Dan’s stunning assertion that compassion is primarily a product of Christian culture (which would shock Jesus himself, who insisted that the moralistic Pharisees missed the core compassion in Judaism). This is an argument for recognizing that values and morals are universal human constructs, necessary for the conduct of daily life. Science can and does inform both the philosophy and the substance of moral life. Yet, there is ultimately more to moral life that is inevitably personal, and worthy of deep consideration.
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on 23 Mar 2007 at 7:44 pm 69. Janus said …
First, I must say that I’m very impressed by Dr. Free Ride. I have never before read anything by a theistic scientist who understands the scientific method so well. My past experience with theistic scientists was limited to buffoons like Francis Collins, so I’m very glad to have come across your post.
I agree with everything you’ve written up till the following paragraph:
“If the hallmark of scientific claims is their grounding in empirical data and the ability to interrogate them publicly with some hope of coming to a conclusion that will be persuasive to all the parties involved in that interrogation, our non-scientific beliefs do not have the same publicly accessible character. They are not grounded in empirical evidence that others can examine, nor do they offer logical chains of inference others may check for mistakes. They are subjective, not objective.”
No, they are objective.
A subjective belief is a belief about something which only exists inside a mind or minds, for example “This painting is beautiful”, or “To cheat on one’s girlfriend is wrong”, or “The meaning of the letters H-E-L-L-O is a greeting”.
An objective belief is a belief about something which exists outside of our minds, for example, “New York is in North America”, or “The universe was designed and created by a supernatural super-intelligent being”, or “The laws of nature will never change”, or “There is nothing in this universe which cannot be understood by the human mind”.You are however correct to say that the assumptions of science (methodological naturalism, induction, etc), if they are believed and not merely assumed, are metaphysical beliefs, i.e. beliefs which cannot be supported by evidence in a signficant way (and _sometimes_ can’t be falsified either). Nevertheless, they are metaphysical beliefs about objective reality.
Belief in God may or may not be a metaphysical belief, depending on how He (or She, or It) is defined. A God who wishes to make Its existence known to all could certainly provide empirical evidence, and a God defined as having done certain things (such as creating the universe 6000 years ago) can be falsified.
“But if my experience of the world is not the sort of thing someone else could pick up, examine, or have herself, that does not mean that my experience does not exist. Nothing could be realer to me. I just cannot make others feel its pull. To do that, I would need to be able to make my personal experience an object of public scrutiny, something that others could actually experience for themselves.”
Well, I would point out that it is probably theoretically possible to use technology to “read” the current state of a mind (including spiritual experiences and various other things), and then replicate this state, this pattern, in another mind, so you may be wrong in asserting that subjective experiences will always remain private. But well, this is a minor point.
Of course I agree that it is possible to have a completely private subjective experience which may lead one to draw conclusions about objective reality. One person could then know the truth about something while never being able to demonstrate this truth to other sceptics.
However, it doesn’t follow that the person who is the subject of this experience is always justified in drawing these conclusions. While I may not be able to experience what you have experienced, I can certainly evaluate the validity _of the logic_ which has lead you from your subjective experience to your conclusion about objective reality.Let me clarify with two examples.
1) One day as I’m walking alone in the forest I hear a bestial roar coming from above. I raise my head and see a gigantic dragon flying above me. After a minute the dragon lands right in front of me, snorts, and vanishes in a cloud of white smoke. After recovering from my fright, I look around to see if there is any evidence that the dragon was real. Are there any broken branches? Clawprints? Anything? Yes, in fact there are very deep clawprints where the dragon used to be. More, 10 minutes later a man comes along, and while he hasn’t seen the dragon, he confirms that the four sets of clawprints are real.Despite this, if the man is a good sceptic he won’t believe that I saw a real dragon. Neither will anyone else even if I take pictures of the clawprints. And yet, despite being a perfect sceptic, I would be perfectly justified in holding the following objective belief: Dragons exist.
The important point is this: Even someone who hasn’t seen the dragon and who will never share my belief must admit that my logic is sound, and that if he had had the same experience, he would believe the same as me.
2) One sunny day as I am sitting on my balcony, I experience a feeling of immense Love and Joy, of Oneness with the Universe, and I feel a presence nearby. Whoa, a spiritual experience. I therefore conclude that the universe was created by a supernatural, super-intelligent entity who for some reason cares very much about us lowly human beings.
I’m sure you see the problem. The logic that leads me from my subjective experience to my (rather extraordinary) conclusion about objective reality is badly flawed. A fellow sceptic would not only laugh at my conclusion, he would laugh at the logic I employed. Even if I really have experienced this, there is no doubt that my belief in God is unjustified and irrational.
In fact, try as I might, I can’t imagine a single personal (private) experience that would warrant belief in God. No matter how extraordinary it is, as long as it’s not public (and therefore empirical evidence), I don’t see how it’s possible to make a 100% logical leap from _experience_ to _belief about objective reality_, in the particular case of the existence of God. Any rational person who knows anything about the human brain would always have to conclude that it all happened purely in their mind. Don’t you agree?
I’ll take this opportunity to correct something you’ve implied throughout your post (although I’m sure you don’t really believe it). Not even the most thorough empiricist believes that only beliefs which are supported by empirical evidence can be held rationally. Mathematics and logic have nothing to do with empiricism, and yet I’m quite sure we all believe that one object cannot be simultaneously more and less massive than another object. Also, as I’ve just demonstrated, there may be some rare cases where beliefs about objective reality are warranted despite insufficient empirical evidence.
Moving on…
“For those who hold that the methods of science are the only good ways to come to beliefs (or to hold onto those beliefs once you notice that you have them), the common line is that any belief that you cannot ground in the empirical facts and good logic does not warrant your belief. This presents a bit of a problem when one holds a belief that the scientific method can be counted on to produce true claims, or even that the laws of nature won’t change next Tuesday. Both are fine beliefs, but neither is grounded in the empirical facts and good logic.”
Well, no, they _aren’t_ fine beliefs. They are, indeed, faith-based beliefs, and therefore unjustified and irrational. As you have said, they are ONLY justified if they are methodological assumptions. It could be argued that believing in the actual truth of naturalism, monism, induction, etc isn’t nearly as foolish as believing in God, since these metaphysical positions have been confirmed again and again and again, and are therefore not equivalent to positing the existence of an all new entity for which there is no evidence whatsoever, but, nevertheless (as you’ve said), there is no solid reason to believe that induction (etc) will not be falsified tomorrow. In this sense, _belief_ in these things is indeed foolish. And so is belief in God.
But what if we consider belief in God a mere assumption, just as methodological naturalism is an assumption? That’s not a bad objection, but it doesn’t take into account _why_ we make assumptions like naturalism. We make them for pragmatic reasons: We have an objective, to discover the truth about the Universe (or, to be more precise, to get as close to an accurate description of the Universe as we possibly can), and we are therefore obliged to make certain assumptions in order to accomplish this objective; as few assumptions as can be made, but, still, _some_ are necessary. To name a few, that there is an objective reality which can be investigated (i.e. solipsism is false), that nothing in this reality is inherently beyond human comprehension (naturalism), and that the deeper behavior of reality is constant (induction). Without making these assumptions, inquiry into the workings of the Universe would not be possible, therefore, and for that reason alone, we are justified in making them. And because they are made for the sole purpose of discovering “truth”, we can call our conclusions which are based on these assumptions “true”.
How would you justify the assumption that the universe was created by a sentient being? Is it necessary in order to discover the truth? Obviously not.
Perhaps, for some people, it’s necessary to give their lives meaning. Fair enough. But then, don’t make any claims about objective reality based on your assumption.
And besides, can you say that the assumption that God exists is _absolutely_ necessary? If we’re going to allow ourselves to make any assumption we want to make simply because it makes us feel better about ourselves, there is no end to the number of assumptions we can make. This number must therefore be as small as it can possibly be, and no assumption must be made that is not absolutely necesary.“An intellectually honest scientist can believe in a deity”
As someone else has said, I don’t see how a rational, intellectually honest person of any profession can believe in a deity.
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on 24 Mar 2007 at 9:59 am 70. spyder said …
As I said in a previous comment, religion and science are different paradigms and are in no way comparable, or relatable.
Really??? I would propose that historians of religions and historians of science would strongly disagree with you. I provide this quick reference for a suggestion that both science and religion, as human endeavors to comprehend and orient to the universe around them, share certain common fields. There are the Descriptive fields, the area of study about “What There Is” that needs to be studied and investigated; and there are Normative fields, the area of study about “How To Think About It” in terms of philosophical and hermeneutical issues of coherency and method.
Both disciplinary threads require the study of language and linguistic philosophy (it is one thing to provide equations and then experiments to prove them, quite another to explain what it all means). Quite often the scientists, caught up in their most serious work, tend to overlook this, which makes the efforts of Dr FreeRide all the more important and critical. But an example could be made of the recent debate in Physics about String Theory’s value to cosmology; purely a normative debate. Likewise most people who hold religious views and creeds tend towards linguistic paralysis as well; it is too easy, for example, to say that the King James version or the NRSV are the literal and only true word of a Xtian god, failing on all accounts to invest in the study of biblical text history.
It does seem to me that scientists are more willing to make the necessary explications for paths of failing or mistakes; some research might look good for a while before collapsing under the weight of experimental data. Religions seems all too willing to incorporate mistakes and errors in thought, rather than acknowledging publicly that things need to be changed. I think Luther was on to this, as was Descartes.
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on 24 Mar 2007 at 10:04 am 71. christian h. said …
As someone else has said, I don’t see how a rational, intellectually honest person of any profession can believe in a deity.
But here’s the rub: there is no such thing as a “rational, intellectually honest person” in the sense you use it here.
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on 25 Mar 2007 at 6:31 am 72. Russell said …
christian h. writes:
But here’s the rub: there is no such thing as a “rational, intellectually honest person” in the sense you use it here.
That’s no more to the point than observing that everyone who routinely does math sometimes falls into mathematical error. We nonetheless identify mathematical error, falsehoods, and the irrational. Perhaps it would be better to say that religious faith is not an intellectually honest position, than to say that an intellectually honest person cannot have religious faith. The former points out the nature of religious faith, while the latter begs for an argument about who among us is truly pure.
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on 25 Mar 2007 at 7:25 am 73. Dr. Free-Ride said …
I’ll try to address a bunch of the points raised here in the comments in a follow-up post. However, since I’m about to spend a fun-filled week dragging a paper into existence to beat a deadline, the follow-up won’t be posted (or written) for at least another 8-10 days. So feel free to keep things going here in the meantime.
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on 26 Mar 2007 at 11:41 am 74. christian h. said …
Russell (comment 72.), I disagree. “Doing math” is not comparable to “being a rational being” - these are different categories, if you will. The point I was trying to make is that intellectual honesty can only be judged relative to the human mind.
A person honest with herself must know that she is not a rational being in the sense that all her beliefs and feelings are based on evidence, or stand some test of internal logic. Someone who tried to rid himself of all that is irrational would, I strongly believe, be self-destructive. This doesn’t mean he can’t acknowledge the irrationality of certain of his beliefs, and feelings; but this is all intellectual honesty demands. So if you said “an intellectually honest person cannot claim to be both completely rational and have belief in the existence of a deity”, I would agree. However, the claim that a “rational, intellectually honest person cannot believe in the existence of a deity” is, as I said, devoid of content since there is no “rational person.” -
on 27 Mar 2007 at 4:47 pm 75. Russell said …
christian h. writes:
Someone who tried to rid himself of all that is irrational would, I strongly believe, be self-destructive. This doesn’t mean he can’t acknowledge the irrationality of certain of his beliefs, and feelings; but this is all intellectual honesty demands.
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